INSIDE EOSC 06 – Enrica Porcari
Andrew Dubber
Hi, and welcome to Inside EOSC, a podcast all about the inner workings of the European Open Science Cloud. I’m Andrew Dubber. I’m a senior researcher at the Industry Commons Foundation and a consortium member of an EOSC project called LUMEN. And every month I introduce, with no apologies made for the terrible pun, luminaries, people who are central to the LUMEN project and, of course, to the wider EOSC ecosystem.
Now, if you’ve been following EOSC for any length of time, you’ll know that so much of what we now call the European Open Science Cloud has its roots in CERN, the European Organization for Nuclear Research. The grid computing infrastructure built to handle the enormous amounts of data coming from the Large Hadron Collider became the foundation for distributed research computing across Europe and, in many ways, for the EOSC itself.
So today I’m very pleased to be sitting down with someone who leads the technology side of that operation. Enrica Porcari is the Chief Information Officer at CERN, a role she took on in January of this year. She heads up a department of more than 400 experts managing the cutting-edge infrastructure that supports the Large Hadron Collider and a global research community of over 12,000 scientists. But what makes Enrica’s story particularly interesting, I think, is the path that she took to get there.
Before CERN, she was the CIO and Director of Technology at the United Nations World Food Programme, and before that, she spent 15 years at the Global Agricultural Research Partnership. So she comes to one of the world’s most important scientific institutions, not from the world of particle physics, but from the world of humanitarian technology and international development. And she’s a social scientist. Enrica, thanks so much for joining us. Great to have you here.
Enrica Porcari
Likewise. Great to be here, Andrew. Thank you so much.
Andrew Dubber
They’re writing your biography, or you’re writing your biography. Which is it?
Enrica Porcari
Since it’s an autobiography, let’s put it, I’m writing it myself.
Andrew Dubber
Okay, fantastic. Because there’s a real story there. It starts somewhere around park ranger and ends up in charge of the technology at CERN. How does a journey like that take place?
Enrica Porcari
Yeah, it’s a long and not very straight journey, let me put it this way. Well, actually, my biography starts when I run away from my kindergarten. But for that, you’ll have to buy the book.
By the way, the royalties are all donated to the CERN and Society Foundation in supporting of STEM education. Again, as part of the commitment to we can all do something small for society. It’s not a pitch for my book.
Andrew Dubber
Well, I was going to say, if it starts as a child runaway, I might wait for the film to come out.
Enrica Porcari
Yeah, that would be fun.
Andrew Dubber
So tell me about the role of chief information officer, because that didn’t exist before, which seems like maybe an oversight.
Enrica Porcari
No, I don’t think it’s an oversight. CERN has had a long tradition of excellence in many areas, from the accelerator technologies to the detectors to the physics and to computing. We run an impressive infrastructure with good governance.
I don’t think it’s an oversight, but it is. It’s part of a journey of maturing towards governance. So I think it’s a moment where it’s been recognized that to renew our commitment to supporting our role in Europe, our role with society, we needed to have a position or a role that kind of united the views that are across the laboratory, without being only one, but building consensus and building a more deliberate strategy moving forward with the huge amount of data, with the new data deluge that we’ll have to handle as we upgrade to the high-luminosity LHC, with the arrival of technologies like the artificial intelligence and quantum. We need to have a cohesion around our strategies, our priorities, our harmonization, ensuring that our data privacy practices are aligned.
So it’s a role that is more of a federation, of a federated role, where we’re recognizing the excellence that happens in the various departments. Artificial intelligence and machine learnings have been at CERN for many, many years. This is not new to us. But what is new is this recognition that it could be in the hands of everybody. So how do we manage priorities?
So it’s, again, I don’t think it’s an oversight. It’s just a new step in the journey of growth.
Andrew Dubber
What constitutes information in that context?
Enrica Porcari
Well, information and communication technologies per se. So everything that goes from the moment that our detectors generate data to the technologies that go into analyzing, storing, sharing, distributing this data and all the governance that comes with it. So it’s the networking. So it’s a large package, but it’s a package, and again, that builds on the experience, the expertise, and the knowledge that already reside across the laboratory and with our partners.
As I say, CERN is a large family of scientists, researchers, innovators, engineers that work in the laboratory, but also across our collaborations, which are the experiments.
Andrew Dubber
Right. You’ve said that you’re not a physicist, and it seems to me logical that that role would not go to a physicist, but it doesn’t seem expected that that role wouldn’t go to a physicist. What do you think has changed about CERN, or what do you think has changed about the world? That means that someone who is not a physicist is now in charge of information technology at CERN.
Enrica Porcari
Well, I guess the realization is that information technology is to be developed in a way that not only meets the primary objectives that CERN is discovering, studying the origin of the universe, but to ensure that they are properly governed in a way that also serves society. You need multidisciplinarity in the whole portfolio. And I think that the fact of, I used to apologize for not being a physicist or computer scientist by training.
I used to say, I’m not a computer scientist, but I no longer say that. I say, I’m not a computer scientist. And let me tell you the way I see things, which I think is a more, with our times, this is much more accepted. The view that to make good science, to develop great technologies, you need a multitude of perspectives. And I hope that this is what I will bring to CERN and its future.
Andrew Dubber
I’ve just come away from seeing you give a keynote speech. And so this is very fresh in my mind. Which was brilliant. Which was sensational. But one of the things that really stuck with me is you were very quick to reassure the physicists that they would still be needed and the computer scientists, that they will still be required. Given AI, how confident are you about that?
Enrica Porcari
Oh, I’m still quite confident because we cannot delegate to a technology the known stewardship of humans. It’s still the technology. It needs to be guided. We can be supported by it, but we cannot simply be guided. We cannot relegate to technology.
Our future needs to have guidance, both ex ante, but also for validation. So I still believe that, again, scientists, researchers, computer scientists are needed. What I’m growingly convinced, however, that they are best served by being associated with different disciplines, different ways of looking at things.
Andrew Dubber
And not just different disciplines, but different sectors of society. You talked about citizen science. You talked about the public in general contributing to the… We’re going to talk about the Open Quantum Institute, which I think is a really fascinating idea. But just this idea of bringing in people, not only who are not specialist physicists, but not specialist anything else in that relationship. How do you think about lived experience in relationship to the contribution to science?
Enrica Porcari
Yeah, absolutely. I think that I’m a strong believer that different perspectives can bring real innovations. We just have to be patient and open to listening to other perspectives.
Sometimes in a monochromatic culture, so to say, or in a monothematic culture or in an organization that just hires a certain type of people, you run the risk of isolation and not being challenged and stuck in this loop. So I think at being open to different perspectives, being truly open, not just serving the tick in the box. Yes, we are a diverse organization, but really being open to listen, being open to embedding new ideas. I think that’s how we will continue growing and developing technologies that are responding to the fundamental questions that an organization like CERN has of understanding the origins of the universe and everything that makes it. But also, how do we ensure that the technology, as we develop it, becomes available, accessible, useful to society at large?
We have many, many examples of this happening. We have examples in medicines, in art, of our technology regarding the magnets, regarding many of the technologies that we have developed now are at the service of society. And we need to continue doing that very, very deliberately as technology gets developed. So what I hope to create is this, supporting this environment of co-creation with different walks of life, different perspectives.
Andrew Dubber
Again, without wanting to provide spoilers for your autobiography, you describe yourself as a social scientist and as a hands-on humanitarian. It’s probably fair to say you have a non-traditional pathway in your career. What’s the thread that runs through the whole thing?
Enrica Porcari
The thread is my relentless curiosity. And I’m always curious to see how things, how they happen and what else they can be used for. I started my career, as you said, in a very unusual way. Social scientist by training. I was a park ranger. I’ve always believed in the power of connections of human and nature.
And that connections has been there my whole life, that quest. And then by chance, I met a person who then I found out he was the director of the IT division at the Food and Agriculture Organization, who himself was an anthropologist. Go figure. Already at the time, there was an anthropologist heading the IT division of a development organization like FAO. And our common point was like, what do we develop this technology for? Who is this for?
And that question, the fundamental question, has always been driving my whole career as I moved for the last 30 years from humanitarian organizations to other scientific and research organizations in the agricultural sector as I led teams in the ITs, in the knowledge management, in the open science, in open data for my whole life. He says, how do we make sure that the technology that we develop is actually applicable to our fundamental questions, but also in a very deliberate way, how can it support society?
Andrew Dubber
Experimentation is a big thing at CERN. And this idea of solutionism often comes up when you talk about who is it for or what problems are we solving? But I really love the idea of science as just finding things out. CERN is about brilliant people throwing tiny invisible objects at each other just to see what happens without an idea of what that could be applied for. So the affordances of those technologies or the discoveries that come out of it feels like an open book. So to me, there’s kind of a disconnect between who is this for and what can we find out? Is there a tension there or am I sort of imposing something that isn’t there?
Enrica Porcari
Well, I don’t think there is a tension because I think we have seen that many of the innovations that were born and CERN were born out of kind of throwing ideas in there. Talking of it today, I spoke about the World Wide Web or PET scanning or hadron therapies. It’s like, okay, what happens? And I think the innate curiosity of fundamental research needs to be there. What we are to acknowledge here is that from fundamental research can come great ideas that also support society.
So for me, it’s not about creating a tension between is it only fundamental research or is it has to be applied? I don’t think so. But we need to keep a keen eye and an open eye and a very careful eye. It’s like, okay, as these things are developed, let’s deliberately look for applications on society. Or you mentioned the Open Quantum Institute is where we basically really put a spin on our research cycle.
So we said, okay, quantum technologies, especially in quantum computing, it’s coming. And at CERN, we’re experimenting for the work we do in the laboratory. But then we have kind of a part of it that says, how do we link sustainable development goals challenges to these nascent technologies in a very collaborative way? So we put teams together that look at societal problems as expressed by the SDGs, by the sustainable development goals, and see whether some of them that are currently untractable could be addressed applying NASA and quantum technologies. And we do that, again, with the interdisciplinarity of what we call the problem owners, so the people who feel these needs right there in the field, who contribute their ideas to the scientists, to the people who are from the private sector, who are interested in interacting with these new communities and see how also the infrastructure that they develop and they will go to market with can serve other groups.
We work with the diplomats to make sure that, for example, that educational programs in the global south are offered. We make sure, and again, for me, is the leave no one behind, which has always been my motto as a humanitarian, also applies to the technology arena.
Andrew Dubber
Well, let’s talk about the Open Quantum Institute, and this is your initiative, essentially. As a kind of a lead on this. But one aspect of this that I’m really interested in is the inevitability of the technology, this idea that we don’t have this yet, but we know we’re going to, so let’s work together to make it, but let’s work together in a particular way to make it.
Do you want to talk a little bit about that idea of inventing things that don’t really exist yet, but we know they’re going to?
Enrica Porcari
Yeah. So the Open Quantum Institute actually was born at GESDA at the Geneva Science and Diplomacy Anticipator. It’s a Swiss foundation that looks at, through the breakthrough radar, looks at what are the nascent technologies that are coming out there that are going to shape society in the next 5, 10, 25 years.
It’s really compelling work. And one of the first examples was quantum, quantum computing. So I’ve been working closely with them since the inception of this idea. And then when we went from an incubation to a pilot, it came to CERN, because this is where we have both the ethos of openness, of inclusion. We have the governance to nurture this approach. We also have the scientists and the expertise to be able to support this idea. And the idea is exactly that. We know that it’s coming.
And I’m often asked the questions, why now? This is not coming for another five years, 10 years. Look, Andrew, who knew that ChatGPT will one day appear so fast onto everybody’s phone or computer and change the way in which we do things? So sometimes you think that technology is a few years down the pike until it’s no longer. And so I think at the time to get prepared is now, even if we think this is going to take some time, because you don’t want to be caught unprepared. Because we do not, I think as citizens of the world, of Europe, also not lead into this more inclusion technology development paradigm to make sure that, again, we develop technologies that take into account applications from the get-go.
And I think this is one of the paradigms and one of the things that we want to champion at CERN. I think the Open Quantum Institute is getting a lot of support, a lot of us in the approach.
We are under a lot of pressure to actually prove that this works, and we are halfway, a little bit more than halfway, through a pilot phase.
I don’t want to not spoil an alert here, but I am crossing my fingers that we will be able to show something quite soon of an advantage that we’re creating with the application of quantum computing technologies in addressing very deep societal problems. But for me, it’s really the way in which we’re somehow sharing the governance way of doing things. It’s not only the technology, it’s spreading this concept that we can do things in a way that are deliberate in supporting society. Because I think we all want to do good, as human beings. We have, sure, we develop technology because we like technologies, or because in some cases, because it generates good income or because…
But deep down inside, finding applications that make the world a better place is something that drives a lot of humanity. I’ve seen it in many of my years in the humanitarian sectors where we could attract a lot of very highly talented and skilled technical people, despite the fact that they could get a much better deal in the private sector, simply because they were dreaming by this end.
Andrew Dubber
You must have seen the flip side of that, though, people who seem to be acting not from the best of intentions.
Enrica Porcari
Yeah, but I don’t associate with them. There is space for everybody. There are people like that, but they don’t matter.
Andrew Dubber
CERN has form in this kind of area, sort of pioneering these groundbreaking technologies that will have huge societal application. What Tim Berners-Lee and Robert Cailliau created at CERN with the World Wide Web, obvious example of that. But it strikes me that there have been unintended consequences of that. Now there is very much a push for sovereignty in data and information technology.
And I think if the same approach was taken to quantum technology in terms of openness and sharing with the world and so on, that was taken with the World Wide Web. And it followed the same trajectory. Sovereignty would be in question, I guess, to a large extent. Is that part of the calculation that’s going on at the moment, or is that a problem for later?
Enrica Porcari
Well, again, there is no later. We need to look at all of this now, the stewardship, sovereignty, ownership, privacy, unintended consequences. All of this need to be taken into account as we govern, as we learn about these new technologies. But this is where I think that examples like EOSC is a great one.
I was asked today in my interventions is whether CERN is going to run EOSC. My answer was no, because I think it takes a village. It takes a perspective of all of us. It takes longer to develop. We’ve seen it took quite a few years to develop a concept like EOSC. But this is where the boundaries of isolationism will be overcome if we feel that we all own this infrastructure, we all own the solutions. And I think that this is the spirit of Europe, Andrew. This is, as I said, Europe is an example of collaboration, of cooperation, of openness.
And we need to honor these principles also as new technologies get developed.
Andrew Dubber
The spirit of Europe is a really interesting idea. I do wonder, I’m on board. I really appreciate this idea that it’s held up as Europe stands for list of really good things. And I support all of those things. I wonder where that comes from, whether this is something that we’ve just asserted and have fallen into like it sounds good. And we do want to be good. Or whether this is something that actually exists in society and is under threat. And a really good example of that, I think, is that your appointment seems like a political choice to a large extent, to have somebody with what you stand for in that kind of position.
And I wonder if in five years’ time that same sort of decision would be made, or are we going in a direction where that sort of decision might not be possible?
Enrica Porcari
Let’s see. Let’s see in five years’ time. For now, I think there is definitely a belief that that is possible, that honoring the commitments that we have, CERN has its roots in Europe and in the way of that collaboration, cooperation, openness. These are enshrined in our funding documents, they are enshrined in everything that we do because we believe it’s the right thing to do and it’s a sustainably longer-term thing to do. We saw in the first day of the conference here in Brussels the different approaches and different drivers of what the United States stands for, what China stands for, and what Europe stands for.
And I think as European organizations and as European citizens, we need to, we deeply believe in this. And so I don’t think it’s an either-or, but it’s definitely something that we will need to fight. I think I said it in my final words, will stand to be proven wrong, but I don’t think we will. I think we need to believe in the longer term objectives that the power is in openness. And that we cannot, on our own, as individuals, as organizations, as countries, we cannot afford to be isolated. And no matter how powerful individuals are, I strongly believe in the power of networking. I strongly believe in the power of unity, of sharing. And I think that this is the right time for Europe to lead in these concepts. And I think we will be proven right. And I think EOSC is a tangible example of this federation where the sum is bigger than its own individual parts. So we’ll contribute to it.
Andrew Dubber
I wonder, let’s talk about EOSC. How front of mind is that at CERN? Does CERN operate thinking of itself as part of a broader European Open Science Cloud? Is it something that is thought about, or is it just when you come to an EOSC conference that you join the dots and make the connections?
Enrica Porcari
No, no, no. This is part of a deliberate effort, a commitment to contributing to the initiatives. We strongly believe in it. You see, we also are very open in the way that the technology that we develop, and as I said, I take great pride in seeing a lot of the technology that initially developed a CERN for things is adopted by others. We see that the adoption as a symbol of how useful some of the technology is, and I’m very happy about it.
I’m very happy to be part of it, to develop. We need to continue focusing on what we do in our research. But again, with keeping the boundaries very porous and with the deliberate effort to join forces with others, it’s not something that we do on the side, is somehow an evidence of the way that we do things.
Andrew Dubber
I’m kind of interested in the idea of progress, which is a word you don’t hear very often anymore. It seems like there’s a lot of talk about new science and new developments and new technologies, but not this idea of technology as an engine of progress for humanity.
But when I talk to people from CERN or from EOSC or related areas. I speak with people who are at the cutting edge of science and they’re all optimistic. They’re all hopeful, which gives me a lot of hope. Do you think that standing where you’re standing now, at sort of, not the head, but one of the heads of this organisation that is basically about looking into the future and you’re speaking about it in a very positive and progressive and hopeful way, what can we take away from that?
Enrica Porcari
It’s very easy to be scared. You turn the television on, you look at what’s going on. We’re here in Belgium and only yesterday drones were flying over. It’s easy to get scared. It’s easy to have the sense that technology is something to be afraid of, that is going to take our privacy, that we’re going to become slaves of it. And it’s easy to fall victim of it.
And I think we have a responsibility as technology developers, as being in one of the premier European organizations and beyond. I think we have a responsibility to change the narrative, to really give hope to new generations, but not only, that if we are deliberate in our efforts to make technology work for us rather than the other way around, there is a positive future ahead of us. And I believe that in the way in which we discover new ways of drug discoveries or new ways in which we could fight cancer or in which we can discover all new things, technology can work for us if we work on it together.
So, yes, I am positive. I wouldn’t be where I am if I wasn’t. But I’m a realistic optimist, if you allow me. I’m not just a Pollyanna. I think I see the power of developing technology that is good for society when people really put their minds and hearts on it.
And so my job will be to nurture this community in reaching that objective.
Andrew Dubber
Enrica, that seems like a fantastic place to leave it. I would hate to take it off in a different direction and leave it on that fantastically positive note. Thank you so much for your time. It’s been a really fascinating interview.
Enrica Porcari
Thank you very much, Andrew.
Andrew Dubber
That’s Enrica Porcari, Chief Information Officer at CERN. And that’s Inside EOSC, a podcast from the LUMEN project, which receives funding from the European Union’s Horizon Europe Research and Innovation Programme. I’m Andrew Dubber, and I’m back next month with an interview with another EOSC insider. You can subscribe to Inside EOSC wherever you listen to podcasts. You can also give it five stars, leave a review or share it with friends and colleagues. Very grateful for any and all of those sorts of things.
Thanks so much for listening and talk to you soon.